Nina Hartley: You’re late. Didn’t anyone tell you that it’s rude to wear your hat indoors? That’s better. So, what should I call you today?

Jiz Lee: What is that?

NH: When I lay on top of you and roll around you’ll know what it is. Am I doing this on camera, or can I just come back with it on the dick?

Shine Louise Houston, Director: You can come back with it. What is that?

NH: It’s a silicone bumper for the end of a dick suction tube, but it makes the perfect cock bumper. So I lay on top of him and rub. No buttons, no gear, no hardware. It feels like a very well padded pubic bone.

SLH: Okay. Wow, that smart. Learn something new everyday. [Laughs] Yeah, true professional!

JL: So Nina Hartley, how did you like the shoot today?

NH: Wow, it was so many waves of amazing and fantastic. I’ve waited 27 years to be able to do a shoot like this. I got into porn a long time ago, 1984, with an idea about sex. For 27 years I’ve played on the straight side of things, but I would say —for queer culture because I look so normal but my ideas are radical. For the people who are challenged by sex it helps that my appearance is —-. What’s really wonderful about this shoot, why it’s different than all the other shoots is A) there is finally queer porn, and there wasn’t when I started. There wasn’t even a glimmer of it. So the fact that there are women owned companies, women run companies doing their porn opposed to someone else’s is brilliant. Oh my god. So I waited 27 years to be able to do this kind of shoot. This is the first shoot…you helped me pop a cherry. And the cherry is my first scene ever where it doesn’t matter what any male bodied person thinks about it. They can like it or not like it, and it doesn’t matter. I’ve always had that in the back of my mind; you know what are men going to think. And I didn’t have to do that. Yay. It was great and very liberating. So the shoot today was awesome, long time coming. You’re just tremendous.

JL: Thank you.

NH: And to finally honestly what I love about being 27 years into it, is the GLBTQ community is big enough now that I can be considered part of it, opposed to a traitor. For a long time a lot of lesbian women looked at me as a traitor because I work with men. So now it’s a mature enough community with enough ideas and different people that I don’t have to worry about that group anymore. There are enough others who say, “we totally see that you’re one of us come on over and play on our side of the pond”.

JL: We’ve overcome hurdles to get there.

NH: It’s amazing and I never thought I’d see that. So that is just great for me to see how it’s matured. True diversity can be welcomed as opposed to, well it’s not diverse because you’re not one of us. Well, no I’m not. So that was the most amazing thing today that A) this side exists. That Crash Pad even exists at all. It’s an amazing group of folks. Wow! And they let me come over to play. I feel like the new girl in school. Can I sit at your table, really? So it was awesome in all kinds of ways.

JL: The challenge of the shoot today for me…I have a hard time with acting, I guess or improving. If I have to say something. Even right now it’s hard for me to articulate some of the ideas that I have. I feel a lot safer writing them down and looking at them first before they go live. Even though I’ve had acting classes in the past, I just get shy. It was nice with you leading the scene as my top and my Sir. I could just go along with you leading and I didn’t have to talk as much.

NH: Right. What I like about that power exchange is that when first learning how to do it, my partner said, “Don’t worry, I will not let you be unpleasing”. Oh, okay great. The top’s job is to make sure that you’re pleasing. So your job is to not worry about it anymore. I thought, awesome, I loved that when I first heard about it.

JL: It was also hard because I felt like I wanted to switch with you. Even when we were first making out, I wanted to keep my hands to my sides because I knew that the minute they started going up they would go all over you. I didn’t know.

NH: I’m not that rigid of a power exchange person, honestly. I feel switchy with so few people. So next time…we’ll have to wrestle for it. Since you’re younger and stronger, you’ll probably win. [Laughs] I look forward to it.

JL: Do you like tickling?

NH: Not so much. I’m not super ticklish. I noticed that you were actually. I wasn’t going to force it on you. I was trying to do acupressure on your foot, and you just started laughing.

JL: Oh yeah, I forgot about that. That was intense.

NH: It was. So I like firm pressure.

JL: Yeah it feels good.

NH: If you tie me down and tickle me, I would probably safe word because that’s not where I like to give up my power. What’s challenging to be able to switch with you, is that I don’t get to fake it. In mainstream porn it doesn’t matter as long as you do it well. Honestly I don’t make straight movies to have orgasms because I’m there to give a performance. You know, you’re a performer, so to give an idea. How I feel about it for real doesn’t matter because it’s going to be caught on camera and people are going to watch it for years and years,

JL: Sometimes the process of making porn and the experience is a lot different than the product.

NH: Yes! It is a product. Yes the sex we’re having is real, our attraction is real; but Saturday afternoon at 2:30 is artificial. So we have to find a way to find the real thing within the construct of this particular location, this time…we have perimeters and limits to do it. But that’s the fun part. It’s like improve on stage. You can’t jump into the audience if you’re doing contact improvisation. I think that sex performance is contact improvisation.

JL: Yeah.

NH: We have a smallish stage, but bigger than some stages I’ve danced on. We made it work. The challenge was not falling on top of you and kissing you for the entire hour. [Laughs] Moving right along, we have to move forward on this. I connect with you and could just do that for a hot make out session. The challenge was having sex fully dressed which I don’t think I’ve done in movies actually. Especially not boy drag. The other movies I’m almost 99% of time in some skirt action because that’s porno convention, straight porn convention. I wanted to be in the jeans and boots. I wanted to try that out. I was like, “wow, naked is better. [Laughs] Naked sex is better”

JL: I’m usually really fast at getting naked. But I did like you in jeans. Although towards the end I wanted to try and temp you to take your clothes off.

NH: And then the tape ran out. Yeah that was cute. I also liked that because I do love to be able to relax my weight and be held up by the neck. I think that’s a great and sexy feeling for me.

JL: Yeah.

NH: So I’m glad you did that, actually.

JL: it’s also nice to lift up from your stomach.

NH: Yeah, I couldn’t reach your neck; so I’m glad you gave me the belt.

JL: I’m glad that you told me to put my feet on you because I liked actually pushing down.

NH: For sure, you have to. I was trying to get your foot up to my hip bone so you could push against it. I don’t know about you, but I have to.

JL: I didn’t want to block the cameras.

NH: Yeah, I thought about that too. You worked. [Laughs] I continue to do porn because I still have plenty to say about sex. In our culture, if you show naughty bits that makes it porn. It’s so hard to speak honestly about sexual matters if you don’t show the so called naughty bits. I continue to make porn because I get to work with people like you. For all of the artificial construct, when it comes down to it its still body to body communication. If I have the right partner, we’re saying something to each other. By definition we’re saying something to the people out there watching. Always I am thinking about the person who has never seen me or seen porn before, and have them go, “[gasp]”. You know really good art bypasses this and goes straight to here.

JL: Yeah.

NH: I think people are jaded about sexuality because porn has become wallpaper. That’s not a bad thing because it used to be you show naughty bits and, “oh bright and shiny”. People didn’t look at the content or the energy behind it. It was just, “[gasp]”. Now it’s been here so long that now it’s like baseball bats and gangbangs. The only thing we have left to work with is feelings. We have this many orifices and this many things that we can stuff into orifices. Its 5 behaviors in 7 combinations.

JL: Right. You try to go as extreme as you want,

NH: But there’s still limits on physics and law. So once you get baseball bats up butts, where do you go from that? But feelings are infinite, infinitely deep, variable, and varied. The 5 behaviors: kissing and hugging, sucking and fucking, and using hands/toys.

JL: Wait, what are they again?

NH: Hugging and kissing, sucking and fucking, and toys/hands. That’s it, that’s all there is to do.

JL: Is rubbing, hugging? Caressing.

NH: Yeah, body to body. There’s not much to do. What makes it infinitely fun is that every time we do it, a new part of us gets tickles. We’ve entered a new game, or what’s today’s energy? Energy is infinite, right? And feeling is infinite, love is infinite, and lust is infinite. So when we work together again it’s going to be the same but different. It’ll be Jiz and Nina, but that day’s energy will be different. Maybe you’ll be topping.

JL: I think when you’re listening to your body and your partner, sex is always different.

NH: While I’m not a monogamous person, I do know that monogamy does not have to be monotonous. You have to show up each time. I think many people end up going through the motions because for whatever reason they can’t be emotionally present with their partner. Then sex gets redundant very quickly. 1-2 hand on knee, 3-4 move to hip, 5-6 kiss the neck, 7-8 fall on back… You’ve never had boring sex like that, but I’ve been married badly and I will tell you that it can get really stultifying if you don’t show up. When you show up, “hi, what are we going to do today? I kissed you last time, but this kiss is different than last kisses. I slapped your face last time, but this face slap is different.” Because where the heart is. That’s why I still do porn. There’s still plenty of heart. I still like it, I’m not jaded on it. I get to work with new people, new partners, and new situations. I’m as excited now as when I first started. It’s like, not a virgin again but being a newbie again with 27 years of experience. And why do you continue to make porn?

JL: First of all, I really like the question of “why do you continue to do it?” because I think each project that you do is a choice. I could stop doing porn tomorrow, and that would be a choice. But I could get an offer to do something, have an opportunity, or situation come up and I can decide, “Yes, I’m going to do it.” The choices vary with each project. So each project will have a different reason. You know? I wanted to do porn here today with you because I really enjoyed working with you in the past. I think you’re a beautiful person.

NH: It’s been a year, do you believe that?

JL: I know it’s almost going to be exactly a year. Maybe exactly a year.

NH: No sorry, it’s been 50 weeks.

[Laughing]

JL: Yeah, you’re right. I’m immensely proud of Crash Pad Series, as a site. I think it’s really important. I don’t want to get all emotional and cry or whatever, but I’ve been involved with it for a long time.

NH: It is terribly important. Thank god for digital, cheaper production. It’s all about speaking your truth. Finally, instead of some guy in San Fernando Valley idea of lesbian. Actually no, there is very little lesbian action in porn. There is girl on girl action. And girl on girl implies femme on femme.

JL: Yeah.

NH: Although back in the days when I had the big hair and I was the femme, I had short nails. Its been really lovely because now 25 years later, I get lesbian women in mid 30’s-40’s who think back to the 80’s and are trying to find images that work for them. They always like me because they could see from my hands how I treated women’s bodies. They could tell. You were too young in the 80’s, but in the 80’s the dragon lady nails were the thing. Giant acrylic extensions.

JL: Were those the ones that fan out?

NH: No just talons, an inch past the end of your finger at least. In bright colors. It was the birth of acrylics. Wow! If you look at 80’s porn, most women have long ugly nails. Then there was me and Erica Boyer with ours short, but they’re painted. I had the femme make up. Femmes are drag. I had the big hair.

JL: Was it San Francisco lesbians? Was that the series or something else?

NH: No. Well Suburban Dykes was one of the first, earliest —movies. In mainstream porn the trope is your screen husband or wife is never who you’re fucking in the movie because mainstream porn is all about cheating, affairs, adultery, and getting the adulterous fuck and the payback fuck.

JL: Hot taboo.

NH: So this was a movie by and for women. The first one I ever did was Hay Fever back in ’84 or ’85. These were actual Humboldt County wood dykes. They would power up the car battery at night on a gas powered generator which ran the camera in the day time. We shot in the woods. That was my first bondage movie, and at one point I’m the damsel and I’m tied up. I didn’t understand anything about kink sex. I was very ignorant. “I don’t do bondage”, but for women, okay fine I can do it. So I’m tied up to the bed and hero comes. I don’t know whether she was riding or walking, and she finds me in a bed like this in the middle of a Humboldt forest tied into it. Bad bondage. So we took it from there. That was my first and the second was Suburban Dykes. They got me to do this movie by saying, “You’re going to be married to Pepper”. Pepper was a fellow dancer at Mitchell Bros. and I thought she was [fluttering gasp].

JL: Just a little, it was okay for you? [Laughs]

NH: I was like, “Wow, I get to be married to Pepper?!” We don’t fuck

JL: Aww

NH: Just like regular porno, it was wild. So we’re having lesbian bed death. At one point we’re laying in bed, and Pepper calls an escort service. The escort shows up in her dykiest pixie cut and wife beater and dumping out the safer sex supplies. So Sharon fucks Pepper. I don’t know who I fuck, but I don’t get to fuck Pepper. And Pepper is long retired. I got to lay next to her in bed.

JL: Uh huh, while she was getting fucked.

NH: Exactly. That was a very fun movie. That was my second all female cast and crew. It was awesome.

JL: I do want to say that I really appreciate you making an effort and using they and them as pronouns. I like that. It felt really good.

NH: Well thank you. I think you’re awesome.

JL: And front hole. I don’t even think I’ve used front hole. It was refreshing to hear that terminology which I think is queer as opposed to pretty girly pussy.

NH: Yeah, you’re just awesome. You’re just tremendous and fantastic and amazing. [Gasp] Oh my gosh. I met you 2 years ago? We started flirting madly as soon as we met.

JL: I know, I think you grabbed my hair.

NH: You had long enough hair for me to grab?

JL: You came up to me like this.

NH: That’s so rude.

JL: And you came up and bit me ear right here. You did this.

NH: Mmm. But if I didn’t ask, that was so rude of me. I’m so sorry.

JL: Well I said, “How did you know?” You said, “Oh, I knew”.

NH: That was still very preemptive of me. One thing for being at the show, because I’m Nina Hartley I get away with behaving badly. One thing I need to learn more about is taking power. People give it to you, so I’ve got to learn to take it because it makes them feel good. I have to learn to feel good with it. Right now I take the power because its gracious to them, not because I get a rush out of it. What I look forward to in the future is learning to is emotionally step into dominance as opposed to top. I could see myself as a butch top as opposed to a Dom, I’m not a femme Dom. I could definitely fuck with strap on and high heels, but I prefer butch topping to femme domming. I’m not really into submissive male bodied people. Unless they’re really big and beefy. I would top a Tom of Finland dude, but I don’t think I want a sissy made. With female bodies people I’m much more variable to that. I switch to energy, but I do not bottom to femme.

JL: No?

NH: I just want to put them on their back. I’ll fuck you. How about you lay back. With someone like you it’s like, “hi, hi!” Go figure. So Crash Pad folks, I hope to come back if they ask me back again.

SLH: Definitely come back.

JL: Yes, yes.

NH: I will never ever do this again, ever. I only do this because they told me if I didn’t get naked they would hurt the puppy.

[Laughing]

NH: So I’ve been doing it for 27 years for the puppy. There’s a lot of puppies.

[Laughing]

SLH: Thanks you guys, that was awesome. Yay!